Have you ever questioned the origins of the rituals being done in our respective religions?

Rosary, repetitive prayers, Christmas, Easter, Halloween, patrons, et al. where do they came from?
I'm sure they have the same roots.

If you have a strong religious background, you will at least have sufficient knowledge to know how these religious practices become part of our tradition.

For example, Christmas is not an original christians tradition. It's actually a pagan tradition that has been adopted by the Vatican to ease the transition of those pagans into christians.

Nobody really know the exact date Jesus was born, and since it is an age old practice to celebrate birthdays, the Vatican decided to put the symbolic birthday of Jesus in December 25.

Adopting traditions aren't taboo. It's a way to try to make it easy for people to accept change.

Example, a long time ago, only the chinese celebrate the chinese new year. Now it has slowly took root in our society and now we celebrate it too, even if we're not chinese.

The practice of blending religious beliefs and practices is known as syncretism. This is what Jesus Christ had said about worshipping in truth:
"But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth".(John 4:23-24)
What God have said about doing heathen ways:

"...and that you do not inquire after their gods, saying, 'How did these nations serve their gods? I also will do likewise.'"You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way; for every abomination to the Lord which He hates they have done to their gods; for they burn even their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods. Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it" (Deuteronomy 12:29-32).

"Do not learn the way of the Gentiles; do not be dismayed at the signs of heaven, for the Gentiles are dismayed at them" (Jeremiah 10:2).

What Paul told us:

"Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ."(Colossians 2:8)

Adopting traditions are taboo. They are abominations to God, if you believe in him. December 25 is a known pagan worship of the Sun, or winters solstice.
"What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it. (Deuteronomy 12:32)

But what is your point?
Do you mean to say that just because it is written in the Bible, that we have to follow it?
Remember, the Bible was written for an old civilization totally different from our own. We have advanced to the point that some of the Bible's teachings are not anymore practical.
I do not say that the Bible is wrong, but it was written for a group of people who are experiencing a religious upheaval hundreds of years ago.
We are beyond that, and our practices should adapt to the advancement of soceity of the human being.

Some of us are not even aware of our practices that totally is against our religion, if we really look at it.
1. Everyday, we check our horoscope to see what the following week has in store for us.
2. When we see a termite mound (punso), we say 'tabi tabi lang po', thinking that little elves live there.
3. Our religion teaches us to honor saints, not worship them. But most of us, especially the elderly, worship them.
4. We go to 'manghuhula' to see our future.
5. We light up firecrackers on new year to drive the 'evil spirits' away.
6. A man passes by a tree with a stain that he thinks resembles the face of Jesus (when in fact nobody really knows what Jesus looks like), and the next day, hundreds of people flock around it and make it a shrine.
The list could go on and on.

3. Our religion teaches us to honor saints, not worship them. But most of us, especially the elderly, worship them.I'm just wondering, why does the church don't do anything about it?...

They do teach us about it, but most of us just ignore it, or forget about it.
But yeah, some of our priests have forgotten their duty to educate their flock about our religion, they are too busy talking about politics during their sermons.

They always say that they have the moral obligation to the people thats why they have to say something in every political situation we are in right now, but where does the separation of the state and the church begins.... anyway its more of a political issue rather than the topic at hand.......

My point is, Bible forbid the practice of mixing pagan practices with truth. It is our choice of course if we will follow what rules God had provided us to follow. God had just told us what are abominations to Him, to prepare and provide us a way on how we can get near to Him, and promise us eternal life with Him, 'cause He can't be with sinners, for He is sinless. We can't say that we are beyond of the law, just because were on the different age. Yes man changes, but God does not.
"God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?" (Numbers 23:19)

As Jesus taught, we simply cannot serve two masters (Matthew 6:24; Luke 16:13). We cannot both embrace two competing systems of worship, of pagan's and of God. But of course, as Bible said, I'll say it again, that we have our choice, and we can do what we want. That is the freedom God had granted us. we can follow the philosophy and traditions of man. The law is just for those who want the reward of the promise.

So does that mean you are against homosexuality? And that gays have no right to live, as stated in Leviticus 18:22?
You are in favor for fathers to sell their daughters to slavery, as stated in Exodus 21:7?
My friend works on the Sabbath (Sundays). Exodus 35:2 clearly states that he should be put to death. Should I kill him myself? Or should I just call the police?
Touching the skin of a dead pig makes a person unclean (Leviticus 11:7). What does that make me if I eat chicharon?
Leviticus 15:19-24 says that we should have no contact with women during their menstrual cycle. How can I tell? I tried asking but women take offense.
According to Leviticus 11:10, eating shellfish is an abomination. Well, that's bye bye talaba!
Leviticus 21:20 says that you cannot approach the Lord's altar if you have a defect in your eyesight. Well, most of the priests I see celebrating mass have eyeglasses. Should they all go to hell?
I could go on and on citing verses from the Bible just like you do.
Those laws are old laws applicable to an old culture. If you insist that we should obey the Bible to the letter, I'm sure you will have a hard time, and will not succeed.

<Adopting traditions are taboo. They are abominations to God, if you believe in him. December 25 is a known pagan worship of the Sun, or winters solstice. >

What are you saying? we should not celebrate Christmas?

You're right, it'd not be easy to follow those "old laws", as Paul had said to Jews: "Now therefore why tempt God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples which neither our father nor we were able to bear?" (Acts 15:10)
But I'm not talking about "old laws" here, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth." Christ easen the burden the law demanded. He offer His precious blood to clean every man from His sin, and that brought forth what we call "mercy age". What I am talking about in the last post is about the laws of what are abominations to God. Those are things that have no end, because God just don't have mind that change. He hates the ways of heathens, homosexuals, and idols as what Jesus, Paul, John, and other apostles had warned us to avoid. It is not because we're on the age of technology we can worship God with pagan practices, just because were in different culture, we can ignore the laws of God.

If you kill your friend, you're a murderer, we're on the mercy age.
If you call a police, that would be a katangahan because police enforces another kind of law.
Don't say bye bye to talaba 'cause God cleaned them already, according to Acts 10:15, as well as pigs.
I'm not a devoted Bible reader.

Celebrating Christmas is a pagan practice (worship of the "invincible sun"), that's for sure, and the Bible says it is abomination to God. You can't read in the history that early Christians, apostles celebrate Christ's birth, it were the pagans that celebrated birthdays. It is not me who says that we should not celebrate Christmas.

wow im learning alot from this thread... im not a bible reader myself and i was very supprised of what God does not allow to do for His people. And i asked my other friends, "is that how though God is, when it comes to law?" and he say Yes, so does it means that what God said before will not change and should not change, so this means the RC did not really follow God's Law? now im really confused and I have not read or heard any law from Jesus saying that old law should not be followed or is there are such text in the bible?

If ya think Jesus found RC, you'd be confused, because lots (almost all) of RC's doctrines are based n pagan rites and practices, not n Christian faith, if ya doubt this, try search Roman Catholic's history. Yes, Jesus did not tell that laws are not to be followed.

"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

RC claims they have the authority equal to the Bible, well, I don't believe that claim. Jesus did not found any religion, specially religions that teach man to worship with graven images. Peter neither found a church in Rome, neither he came, nor visit to Rome in his whole life. Peter did marry, popes are forbidden, Peter don't let others bowed down to him, popes fond doing so.
Jesus did not teach us to pray in his "mother's" name, but in His name instead, RC teach us to pray to Mary.

The problem is, you cite Bible passages that will only support your stand, and totally ignore Bible passages I cite to you that contradicts your stand.

You yourself quoted (again, from the the Bible) on your last post:
"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."
But it ran contradict to your previous post:
If you kill your friend, you're a murderer, we're on the mercy age.
If you call a police, that would be a katangahan because police enforces another kind of law.
Don't say bye bye to talaba 'cause God cleaned them already, according to Acts 10:15, as well as pigs.
I'm not a devoted Bible reader.
And by the way, Acts 10:15 describes Peter's dillema when he was starving and God just cleansed those food available to him, for that specific incident only. In fact, it was done 3 times. If God removed it from the law, then he doesn't have to do it two or three times, He has to do it only once, and then it is forever cleansed. But by doing it three times, it clearly shows that God allow it only when Peter was hungry and cannot find clean food. You are totally misquoting the Bible.
This specific quote from you I have to post twice:
If you kill your friend, you're a murderer, we're on the mercy age.
I beleive this is your reply to MY previous post about Exodus 35:2, that says whoever works on the Sabbath day shall be put to death.
It is totally opposite to what you previously said:
We can't say that we are beyond of the law, just because were on the different age. Yes man changes, but God does not.
For the sake of argument, can you please enumerate to us the laws on the Bible that should be ignored, and those that should be followed? And can you please tell us what authority said so?

Add these to your confusion . . . .

The Zoroastrians began the organized naming of gods and demons and holy entities . . . .

The Bible has been translated and re-translated, it took two powerful sects/to declare one as the true[?] and precise translation . . . . . .

How come there are more devout Hindus, Buddhists and Muslims than Christians?

Hee-hee . . .

Now what could this tiny bits of information do to both your verbal jousting . ..

I wonder . . . . . .

So does that mean you are against homosexuality? And that gays have no right to live, as stated in Leviticus 18:22?.......
.........hell?
I could go on and on citing verses from the Bible just like you do.
Those laws are old laws applicable to an old culture. If you insist that we should obey the Bible to the letter, I'm sure you will have a hard time, and will not succeed.

True.
People, check it out.
We have all the prohibitions on adultery, theft, etc.
But the bible tells us nothing is wrong with slavery.

[but then again, why trust a screaming mango for facts?]

There's no contradictory to the quotes I make, as I qoute, Jesus end the law for righteousness (if you understand), you're self-interpreting the Bible, come tell me where in the Bible that mention "unclean beasts" or alike are forbidden to be eaten (after Jesus died and live again). None. God never removed any of His law. Are you saying that because one of His disciples was hungry He will feed him (Peter) with "still" unclean beasts? It would make Peter exempted of the law. Kung possible ito, then, useless lang ang pagpapakamatay ni Hesus dahil pwede din lang naman malinis ang mga bagay na marurumi sa Diyos. The sacrifice of Jesus end the law for righteousness, thus, to be clean from any "unclean" (pigs, homosexual, marrying to not countryfolks, etc.) ect. The quote:

"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

Jesus is the fullfillment of the laws. That's biblical.

You're confused with law for righteousness (law to make man clean in the face of God, but Jesus, clean us totally by His own sinless blood, lamb's blood was used to cover their sin in the past) to the laws of God I am telling to you. There's no any contradictory here.

These statements of yours totally contradict each other:
There's no contradictory to the quotes I make, as I qoute, Jesus end the law for righteousness (if you understand)
contradicts:
God never removed any of His law
So please don't try to confuse us by saying otherwise.
And while you are fond of quoting, may I remind you that your statement:
Are you saying that because one of His disciples was hungry He will feed him (Peter) with "still" unclean beasts? It would make Peter exempted of the law. Kung possible ito, then, useless lang ang pagpapakamatay ni Hesus dahil pwede din lang naman malinis ang mga bagay na marurumi sa Diyos.
is totally different from my statement:
And by the way, Acts 10:15 describes Peter's dillema when he was starving and God just cleansed those food available to him, for that specific incident only. In fact, it was done 3 times. If God removed it from the law, then he doesn't have to do it two or three times, He has to do it only once, and then it is forever cleansed. But by doing it three times, it clearly shows that God allow it only when Peter was hungry and cannot find clean food. You are totally misquoting the Bible.
Please try to read my statements carefully.
For those of you who do not know what Acts 10:15 says, here it is:
Act 10:9 On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:

Act 10:10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,

Act 10:11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:

Act 10:12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.

Act 10:13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.

Act 10:14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.

Act 10:15 And the voice [spake] unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, [that] call not thou common.

Act 10:16 This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.
For the sake of the readers, and for my sanity, I would like to ask you this simple question, with witch I hope you will give a simple answer:
Should all the laws written in the Bible be followed? Or are there some laws that are already obsolete and should be changed?

ok. Maybe I'm not good in explaining, or maybe I not good in expressing what I really wanna say. But I know, and will claim that my point is correct. Laws for righteousness, was end by Christ, so law for righteousness like killing homosexuals, avoiding to touch pigs or eating them, et al, are end by Christ, but no laws were changed, that's all I can say for now. I will find a way to express it clearly. If I can.

First of all, I hope there is no argument that all professing (professing because not all claiming to be Christian is really in truth a Christian) Christian agree that the bible is the sole authority or doctrinal basis of the Christian faith.

For the sake of the readers, and for my sanity, I would like to ask you this simple question, with witch I hope you will give a simple answer:
Should all the laws written in the Bible be followed? Or are there some laws that are already obsolete and should be changed?

We are in the Christian dispensation and St. Paul said in Galatians 1:11-12: ?I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.?

We are to follow the gospel that Jesus Christ preached.:up:

I give up.

This is getting more and more like the way ADD and ATD are hammering away at each other on TV.

Quoting from your most cherished passages doesn't make you knowledgeable on what you say.

The book, from which you guys derive your arguments, is in fact, relatively an infant compared to the teachings of Mohammed,Mahomet, Muammad, or Muhammad. Or, I repeat for the sake of comparison, the Zoroastrian articles. Even today, our "Christian Brethren" [ Baptists, Mormons, Seventh Day Adventists, INC, Aglipayan, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc] cannot agree on how to call HIM> Yeshua, Iesus, Jesus, Christus, Christ, Yahweh El Shaddai, etc.

Which brings me to my point:
The Bible has too many versions and translations, take that into consideration.

At least, the known discrepancy in it is the 30-or-so years missing in the biographical part of the BIBLE.

The Inquisitions, burned women at the stake simply because women exhibited higher intelligence than men of the cloth.

Joan of Arc slaughtered enemies for her love of GOD.

Colonists and Friars ravaged our women here when they came to out land, all in the pretense of Christening our people.

So you ask, should we follow the BIBLE?

Read it first.

Maybe you'll get some sort of enlightenment.:cool:

[ and please, check if your copy of the BIBLE doesn't have typographical errors, ok?]

[ and please, check if your copy of the BIBLE doesn't have typographical errors, ok?]
The importance of listening carefully
There was a Pope who was greatly loved by all of his followers, a man who led with gentleness, faith and wisdom. His passing was grieved by the entire world, Catholic or not. As the Pope approached the gates of heaven, it was Saint Peter who greeted him in a firm embrace.
"Welcome your holiness, your dedication and unselfishness in serving your fellow man during your life has earned you great stature in heaven. You may pass through the gates without delay and are granted free access to all parts of heaven."
"You are also granted an open door policy and may at your own discretion meet with any heavenly leader, including the Father without prior appointment. Is there anything which our holiness desire?
"Well, yes," the Pope replied. "I have often pondered some of the mysteries which have puzzled and confounded theologians through the ages. Are there perhaps any transcripts which recorded the actual conversations between God and the prophets of old? I would love to see what was actually said without the dimming of memories over time."
Saint Peter immediately ushered the Pope to the heavenly library and explained how to retrieve the various documents. The Pope was thrilled and settled down to review the history of man's relationship with God. Two years later a scream of anguish pierced the stacks of the library.
Immediately several of the saints and angels came running. There found the Pope pointing to a single word on a parchment, repeating over and over, "There's an 'R', there's an 'R' -- it's celebrate, not celibate!"
--Original author unknown, furnished by Shari Greenfield (6/4/96)


on the other hand, I think i?ve got good company??

"I believe the Bible is the best gift God has ever given to man." Abraham Lincoln

"There are more sure marks of authenticity in the Bible than in any profane history." .... "I have a fundamental belief in the Bible as the Word of God, written by men who were inspired. I study the Bible daily." Sir Isaac Newton


<<<<<<Proverbs 8:8-9>>>>>>:up:

We'll think of laws as equations. These equations are crude, hard to follow, but they are correct and are the only way to solve the problem of man's uncleaness that separates him from God. The equations must be applied so that this problem well be solve. These equations govern man to not touch unclean things, eat them not, etc. It tell what is unclean and not. Thus, equations for righteousness. It govern man how to be righteous to God. God-to-man relationship equations. But none had ever applied the equations correctly, thus, no one derived on the right answer. When Christ came, He fulfill the equations by applying them correctly, making Him sinless. Then He washed our sins by His sinless blood, thus opening the grace to mankind. He did not changed the equations, He fulfill and finish the equations for righteousness (not removed, ending the laws is different from removing or editing the law). That's why Jesus is called "The Finisher". The answer of the problem was unveiled, and that is believe in Christ Jesus. By doing the answer, man is then, can be saved. The God-to-man relationship problem is solved.
But there are another kind of equations, these are not the same as equations for righteousness. It concern not to man's, but to God's only. These quations tell man what God hates, and what insults Him. These equations are independent to man's conditions, whether he's clean or not. And man must applied it to avoid the consequences. Remember what happen to Israelites when they celebrated the Feast of Jehovah with Egyptian idol and practices. Bible called it "a great sin". Paul said that idolaters can't enter the Kingdom of God.

We'll analyze what will happen if pagan ways are ok to God.

-The Bible is lying, because It says that God never change His mind. And God said, He hates the ways of pagans.
-Paul, John, and other apostles who wrote the New Testament were misled by the Holy Spirit because they taught us to avoid paganic worship, idolatry, et al.
-The pagans can be saved without discontinuing their idol worshipping, praising to the sun, celebrating Bacchus death and ressurection, et al, if they will only believe in Christ, and at the same time kissing to idols etc.
:up:

There is no point comparing our faith to others. faith is our personal connection with God. sincerity in praying to Him that counts.

I am a Catholic but i dont go to church devoutly, especially if i know that i will just see the person i hate the most in church. i'd rather go to small quiet chapels and pray there alone and be sincere with all my might.

it would be very hypocritical for me to go to church just to show other people that i am going, and i am faithful. they are not the reason why i believe anyway.

[quote=ashes2ashes]There ........ that counts.
I am a Catholic but i dont go ....... person i hate....... sincere with all my might.
it would be very hypocritical ......... are not the reason why i believe anyway.[/quote

Said this, Master Yoda did: Fear is to anger, anger is to hate, hate is to suffering . . .and so the line goes.:cool:

Make this discussion a way to illuminate, and not to alienate.:p

sincerity in praying to Him that counts.

Will our prayer be heard if hate is in our hearts?

The Catholics believed in the bible, so ask the bible........

does my faith conforms to the word of God, or is it of pagan tradition.......

Will our prayer be heard if hate is in our hearts?

The Catholics believed in the bible, so ask the bible........

does my faith conforms to the word of God, or is it of pagan tradition.......


Good point there:cool:

The importance of listening carefully

There was a Pope ..........."There's an 'R', there's an 'R' -- it's celebrate, not celibate!"
--Original author unknown, furnished by Shari Greenfield (6/4/96)


on the other hand, I think i?ve got good company??

"I believe the Bible is the best gift God has ever given to man." Abraham Lincoln

"There are more sure marks of authenticity in the Bible than in any profane history." .... "I have a fundamental belief in the Bible as the Word of God, written by men who were inspired. I study the Bible daily." Sir Isaac Newton


<<<<<<Proverbs 8:8-9>>>>>>:up:

Hee-hee!
I missed out the first time I read this.

Here's another point we may all want to consider [ A.Lincoln, I. Newton ] > In their time, women were treated as 3rd class citizen, and are mostly discouraged to study and speak out. And they said they look at the Bible for guidance.

Makes us think, doesn't it?

Heck, don't take a mango seriously.:cool:

What makes me really think is this, 'after all your attempt at joining the discussion with smart talk and failing humor, what is your stand in all of this?'
When joining a discussion, you just don't jump in and critisize each side, without showing us your own side of the discussion.

At least with dust, we both get to learn from each other by our exchange. At least it is clear who's side is which.

But you of course, would end your statement with:
Heck, don't take a mango seriously.
For what purpose, I do not know. I could only assume that that's your way of running away should the disccussion not go your way, you could always say, 'hey, I said don't take me seriously.'
Here's another point we may all want to consider [ A.Lincoln, I. Newton ] > In their time, women were treated as 3rd class citizen, and are mostly discouraged to study and speak out. And they said they look at the Bible for guidance.
Even before their time, women were treated as 3rd class citizens. It's not about religion, it's about society and about men being physically superior than women. And while you cannot distinguish between 'their time' and the present time, let me remind you that the advancement of soceity brings about women rights not heard of before.

And that is what I'm talking about all along. In order to survive, our religion should adapt to the changing times. Christmas, which have its root from a pagan tradition is a good tradition and adapting it to our tradition doesn't make us pagans. When we adapted it, we removed the pagan symbols and meanings, and changed it to christian, so in a way, it doesn't remain pagan, but becomes Christian.

Makes 'YOU' think, doesn't it?

Haven't read of this...
Here's another point we may all want to consider [ A.Lincoln, I. Newton ] > In their time, women were treated as 3rd class citizen, and are mostly discouraged to study and speak out. And they said they look at the Bible for guidance.


But this i have...


Newton, Sir Isaac (1642-1727), mathematician and physicist, one of the foremost scientific
intellects of all time.
...The full extent of Newton's unorthodoxy was recognized only in the present century: but although
a critic of accepted Trinitarian dogmas and the Council of Nicaea, he possessed a deep religious sense,
venerated the Bible and accepted its account of creation. In late editions of his scientific works he expressed
a strong sense of God's
providential role in nature. http://www.newton.cam.ac.uk/newtlife.html (http://www.encarta.msn.com/)

A. Lincoln
As President, he built the Republican Party into a strong national organization. Further, he rallied most
of the northern Democrats to the Union cause. On January 1, 1863, he issued the Emancipation Proclamation
that declared forever free those slaves within the Confederacy.
...Lincoln won re-election in 1864, as Union military triumphs heralded an end to the war. In his planning
for peace, the President was flexible and generous, encouraging Southerners to lay down their arms and
join speedily in reunion. http://www.whitehouse.gov/history/presidents/al16.html (http://www.whitehouse.gov/history/presidents/al16.html)



I could go on researching what these men did or not did regarding the In their time, women were treated as 3rd class citizen, and are mostly discouraged to study and speak out

or i could just testify for the miracles showered by the God who inspired the writing of the
bible so that our faith will not be of pagan traditions.....
Religiously, serious.
Seriously religious.
Whichever...

<<<<<<Matthew 6:33>>>>>>:luvstrk:

What makes me really think is this, 'after all your attempt at joining the discussion with smart talk and failing humor. . . . . . . . . .
Makes 'YOU' think, doesn't it?

I'm afraid I wasn't really attempting to join in the discussion, but merely putting in some breather in what I see as a possible replication of other, so-called forums, which tend to be redundant and really boring .

And, on the contrary, I enjoy visiting this part of the forum to see if there are new things about.

I choose to keep my faith and beliefs to myself [ I was raised in the revolutionary offshoot of the Roman Catholic Church , The Iglesia Filipina Independiente also known as Aglipayan ], just because there are still some impressionable people [ anybody 5 years younger than me, I consider really young! ] here and would rather let them find out for themselves what it is that would temper and strengthen their own beliefs.

You were quoting from The Ancient Written Wisdom that is the Bible, that somehow survived to this day.
I was stating some examples, good and bad that somehow evolved into a fair replicate of the old ones.
John Cougar Mellencamp wrote a song about this, called "Stand for Something" and I agree.

Think of me as The Devil's Advocate.
I think it most appropriate, don't you agree?

Haven't read of this...
. . . . . . . . . . .
or i could just testify for the miracles showered by the God who inspired the writing of the
bible so that our faith will not be of pagan traditions.....
Religiously, serious.
Seriously religious.
Whichever...

<<<<<<Matthew 6:33>>>>>>:luvstrk:
@ weird norm: Awww! You're spoiling the whole devil's advocate thing I just gotten into. Hee-hee!:cool:
@ blasterQ, dust, ashes2ashes : Carry on with the dissection. You may not realize it, but this is what forums are all about, dissenting opinions, different views, and a good way to practice some mental exercises!

With all due respect sir, if you chose to keep your faith and belief to yourself, then you will put me and dust, and others at a disadvantage in this discussion.
How can we defend our side from your comments if we do not know, or not allowed to know what side you are?
I would very much enjoy it if you would care to share your religion's beliefs and practices, and let's see what discussion we can come up with it. :)

I hate to disagree but what can i do.......

Think of me as The Devil's Advocate.
I think it most appropriate, don't you agree?

you were part of the creation on the sixth day...God saw you and you are very good.


<<<<<<gen 1:31>>>>>>:up:

maybe he means devil's advocate as "a Roman Catholic official whose duty is to examine critically the evidence on which a demand for beatification or canonization rests".

That's the worst idea I've ever read. BlasterQ's right. You're acting like a referee. Sounds like we're having a fight here and you're making yourself safe by just choosing to just stand afar watching who will win. There's no fighting here. You cannot tell us to "carry on with the dissection". Who do you think you are? Another one, you're making an age discrimanation here. Please, don't act like an administrator.
If ya think it's better to keep your beliefs and faith for yourself, keep it. And it's better also to keep yourself from posting anything (imperative) in this discussion.

maybe he means devil's advocate as "a Roman Catholic official whose duty is to examine critically the evidence on which a demand for beatification or canonization rests".

That's the worst idea I've ever read. BlasterQ's right. You're acting like a referee. Sounds like we're having a fight here and you're making yourself safe by just choosing to just stand afar watching who will win. There's no fighting here. You cannot tell us to "carry on with the dissection". Who do you think you are? Another one, you're making an age discrimanation here. Please, don't act like an administrator.
If ya think it's better to keep your beliefs and faith for yourself, keep it. And it's better also to keep yourself from posting anything (imperative) in this discussion.

Now who's acting like an "Administrator?" :cool:
Point well taken.

. . . . I guess I will leave you guys to your wranglings.

I'll miss the fun, though.:cool:

Try reading da vinci code... believable na sana, then at the end, fiction din pala. disappointing.

note: dont read it if your faith is based on superficiality. it is not even meant to test your faith.

Ya right. I'm just giving you an advice, if point is well taken. ^^
not telling to you what to do, like what you did. :cheeky:

. . . . I guess I will leave you guys to your wranglings.
I'll miss the fun, though.
Hinanap ko sa encarta ang salitang "wrangling", walang nakita.
Tiyak ko ang ibig ipahiwatig ni Eman dito ay ang damdamin ng salitang
"wrangle" na nangangahulugan na >>>argue persistently: to argue persistently and angrily<<<.

pero ang dating sa akin ng salita ay "nakatutuwang pagtatalo", at maaaring ito rin ang ibig iparating ni Eman.

Tunay na nakalulugod at ako ay nasisiyahan sa palitan ng kuro kuro ukol sa "sinulid" na ito na pinamagatang "Our faith and pagan traditions (http://www.kuro.ph/forums/showthread.php?t=2063)".

Ayan, bagay na sa pamagat ng "reply".:cool:

(I apologize sa mga "sinabi" kong medyo hindi pinag-isipan ha mga kakuro? Natamaan lang ako sa sinabi ni Eman's na "I choose to keep my faith and beliefs to myself just because there are still some impressionable people", wala naman kasi siyang sinabing reason kung anong masama sa mga younger pa sa kanya.) ^^
to scrEaMing mANgo: I'm hoping you'd be able to read this one, 'cause I'm hoping you're just there, or here, lurking, watching our wranglings, I'm sorry, mali ako. Now, I'm acting as an Admin, forgive dust or else, (wala nga pala akong magagawa).

da Vinci code, sa mga journals ko lang yan nabasa, kakatwa nga. Talagang malawak ang power of imagination ng tao.

@ dust,
i checked your profile and i saw that you're really young compared to me and eman. di lang ako tinamaan don sa sinabi nya dahil di naman nya sinabi na people 5 yrs older.
sa akin naman age doesn't matter as long as we keep an open mind and really give valid input.
commendable that at your age your interest lies in these worthy threads and not like as the common(?) young generation of our time na nasa kalayawan ang kaaliwan.
keep on these roads that are "less travelled" and i knew you'll benefit much more than you've imagined.

hanggang dito na lamang,
ang iyong long lost lolo> weird norm:-/

aside from "Christmas Celebration", is there any pagan tradition that present christian do or practice?

To Dust!!!!

Religion is a very broad concept that even you (as infinitesimal and insignificant DUST as you are) could not explain. Dont brush us off as if you own this space of electronically generated place in the universe.

We are discussing here our faith and pagan religions. I know all about Devil's Advocates, Dead Sea Scrolls, and all that jazz ( i have a sibling who's a priest- do you want a pray-over or last rites?).

I just want you to know that the people who are seemingly too unattached to any religion are the same people who have the most incredible faith in the world. We all have our own opinions. Dont act like you know it all. REMEMBER: You are not GOd. and thanks God thet you are not GOD.

Sa iyo Dust again...

I advice you not to read Da Vinci Code. I am afraid that you'll become the next anti-Christ...but if you have strong Faith. go on, read with all your brains spilt out. Palabas na rin siya next month. Gusto mo libre moko?

To weirdnorm nga pala, not all words could be found in a dictionary. Sometimes, commonsense would do.

What??
(I'm talking to ashes2ashes) I never notice I'm acting like I-know-it-all. Ba't nu nasabi 'yan. Pwede pakisabi naman so I'll know my mistake. Kaya nga naglilibang nalang ako sa pagfoforum dahil depressed ako sa paaralan (bagsak ako sa Physics, Math, English saka major), saka para naman makakuha ako ng ideas ng iba. Siguro naman hindi ako feel magpa know-it-all dahil dun. Si weird norm ang sinabihan ko about devil's advocate dahil parang iba ang ibig sabihin n'ya sa ibig ipahiwatig ni Eman. Thanks in advance ^^ Thanks and toink, wala akong pera sa ngayon ^^
Paano nyo nasabing "next anti-christ"? Siguro may kilala kang naging anti-Christ dahil sa book na yan.

@weird norm: Thanks din, age doesn't matter nga. ^^

aside from "Christmas Celebration", is there any pagan tradition that present christian do or practice? (Japs23nuts)
Easter. Sa pangalan palang paganic na. Two of the earliest recorded deities were the Babylonian fertility god Tammuz and the goddess Ishtar. Ishtar, may well have been the origin of the word Easter. The origin of the Easter egg is based on the fertility lore of the Indo-European races. The Easter bunny had its origin in pre-Christian fertility lore. Hare and rabbit were the most fertile animals our forefathers knew, serving as symbols of abundant new life in the spring season. In Babylonian mythology Tammuz died annually and was reborn year after year, representing the yearly cycle of the seasons and the crops.

Physics teacher ako...pa-tutor ka?

PABASA...bakit PABASA e, kumakanta naman sila?

waaaaaaaaaa. Nakakahiya naman. ^^ Thanks nalang po. Nakakahiya kasi. ^^
PABASA, di ko na gets.

PABASA, yung parang kumakantang dasal ukol sa pagkamatay ni Kristo sa krus... siguro di ka pa nakakita nun...o nakarinig kaya.

anyway, nice "meeting" you.:cool:

Ahh, I see.
Nice meeting you din :laugh:

To weirdnorm nga pala, not all words could be found in a dictionary. Sometimes, commonsense would do.
Pasensya na po, di ko tinapos ang aking
high school level kaya i consult the
dictionary from sometimes to sometimes.:-X

Bakit naman nakagalitan si Dust?
I just want you to know that the people who are seemingly too unattached to any religion are the same people who have the most incredible faith in the world. We all have our own opinions. Dont act like you know it all. REMEMBER: You are not GOd. and thanks God thet you are not GOD.

Anyways, feel ko lang parang bugbog na bugbog na yung gumagawa ng mga nabanggit na tradisyon kaya parang held back ako na mag mention seeing the fact wala namang nagdedepensa.
kumbaga, surrender na nirarapido pa...... just a thought and i look forward to posting here regarding faith.:up:

Ya, right. Ayaw lang nilang maicorrect ang mga nakasanayang tradisyon dahil bahagi na ito sa kanilang buhay. Wala namang bad effect (sa ngayon) ang pagpapanatili ng tradisyong pagano eh.
Oo nga, be thankful hindi ako God, dahil pagnagkataon, walang weird norm or ashes2ashes or sino mang existing lahi ni Adan dito. Nakita ko lang si Adan at Ebang nagkasala, buburahin ko nalang sila at gagawa uli ng taong hindi palpak. Bakit ko pa sila papanatilihin sa "creation plan" ko, kung ang katumbas lang noon ay ang kailangang maging tao at magtiis sa krus para lamang maibalik sa dati ang planong "perfect creation". Ngunit sadyang mabuti ang Diyos, He didn't delete Adan from His program, instead, He saved him, kahit na hindi madaling gawin, para lamang maibalik ang ugnayan ng Diyos at ng tao.:angry:

^^

Wala namang bad effect (sa ngayon) ang pagpapanatili ng tradisyong pagano eh.


napakasama ng epekto, (2kings 17:14-20).

So the LORD was very angry with Israel and removed them from his presence.

biruin mo, nabubuhay sila sa sumpa.....

trying to deduce and extrapolate and wachamacallit God's plans is like trying to read a Martian book. If we will someday understand God... and someday will be thinking like Him... then parang na-solve na rin natin ang age-old mystery of Faith and the Mystery of it all.

MYSTERY OF FAITH...

MYSTERY...

find it in your Encarta...

ashes2ashes, our discussions here are fun and healthy until you joined in. it is wrong to join in a discussion without stating us your clear position. you're a heckler.
parang you are watching a basketball game between two teams and you are shouting your critisisms to both teams, when you in fact don't know how to play, and just sitting there in the safety of your seat. :p
dust is defending his position against me, that's not acting like he knows everything. you on the other hand pretend like you know everything.
the first few pages of The Da Vinci Code already says that it is fiction, the reviews say it is fiction, critics say it is fiction, i'm surprised it took you the whole book to realize that it is.

MYSTERY OF FAITH...
MYSTERY...
find it in your Encarta...

I was surprised Encarta supplied me with the ff.
Mystery Religion, any of various cults of the ancient world that were open only to the initiated. The earliest known mysteries, from at least as... (http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_762506524/Mystery_Religion.html)

whereas cult was defined as religious group whose practices and beliefs differ from those of the dominant or mainstream religions. (http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761580494/Cult.html)

Very confusing, wouldn't solve a mystery.

A mistery at Encarta because they failed whom to consult, where to seek???Seek ye out of the book of the Lord, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded and his spirit it hath gathered them.?

And Saint Paul said?..?Now to him that is of power to establish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith.?

God had already made manifest the mystery that had been kept secret since the beginning. He revealed it during the time of the Apostles, and these Apostles were the ones given by God the authority to explain the writings of the Prophets.

As for Encarta, I may still thetrust in their dictionary.:up:

Anong say n'yo about Japs23nuts' question? Ikaw weird norm, palgay ko may sasabihin ka about traditions pero held back ka lang magmention. Hindi naman kailangan ng defender eh. Sharing lang tayo. Masakit magsalita si BlasterQ ah Blast to the face. :-X

dust, :p
the thing is, when you adapt a pagan practice into your culture, that practice is assimilited into your culture and becomes part of your culture. the pagan symbolism associated with it is therefore dissolved.
example:
most of our culture is based on a mix of foreign culture. we have spanish practices adopted from our spanish conquerors, but that doesn't mean we're spanish.
you're from luzon, and you come to iloilo to join the celebration of dinagyang, but that doesn't mean you become an ilonggo.
you love to eat spam, and other american foods, but that doesn't make you american.
we took the pagan celebration and made it into christmas, we removed its pagan meaning and replaced it with christian meaning. so is christmas pagan? it may came from a pagan practice, but it is not pagan, it has been adpoted to our religion, therefore it's a christian celebration. christmas reminds us of Jesus, christmas reminds us to be good, christmas makes us happy, that's not pagan to me. to me, it's very christian.

to BlasterQ,

How can a pagan practice became a christian? As Paul had said, "What fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? And what agreement has the temple of God with idols?..." Yes, Christmas did remind us of Jesus, but the Bible don't support it even. Wise men, exchanging gifts, Santa Claus, Bible had nothing to do with them. God didn't let us worship Him the way we like, but instead, He ordered us how to worship Him, and not to do the ways of pagan.

Did three wise men travel to see Jesus? The Bible doesn't say. There could have been more. We are told only that they gave Jesus three kinds of gifts: "gold, frankincense, and myrrh" (Matthew 2:1, 11). The number of wise men is not known. Melchor, Gaspar, (I forgot their names), where do they came from?
Did everyone exchange gifts when Christ was born? Gifts were presented to Jesus because He was born "King of the Jews" (verses 2, 11). This was the expected custom when appearing before a king, thus the wise men brought gifts fit for a king: gold and valuable spices. Jesus alone was the recipient of the gifts; others did not exchange gifts among themselves. It were the pagans that exchange gifts with each other during Saturnalia, or what we perpetuated today as Christmas.
Did the wise men, as nativity scenes often depict, arrive to find Jesus in a makeshift shelter?a manger?because there was "no room in the inn"? (Luke 2:7). Not really. By the time the wise men arrived, apparently some time after Christ's birth, Joseph's family was residing in a house (verse 11).
Did the writers of the four Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) consider Jesus' birth to be one of the most significant events for Christians to acknowledge or celebrate? Mark and John do not even mention the event. Although Matthew and Luke mention it, neither gives the date. None of the biblical writers says anything about commemorating Christ's birth.
Did Jesus Christ tell us to celebrate His birth? No. However, He left explicit instructions regarding how His followers are to commemorate His death (1 Corinthians 11:23-26).
So, if Jesus didn't teach us about celebrating His birth, it is not Christian anymore, Christian is one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus.

Paul said that everything the Gentiles sacrifice, they think they're offering it to God, but the truth is, they're offering it to the devils.

Many may claim they are Christian but are they really?
Christians are those that obey the words commanded by God through His son Jesus Christ
and His commandments are not "grievous" so why burden ourselves with these "beliefs and traditions"
that are of dubious source?

God said.........

"They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men."


Please check the basis of our faith.:luvstrk:

To dust:
a pagan practice becomes Christian when it is adopted, and the pagan meaning removed and replaced by christian.
Yes, Christmas did remind us of Jesus, but the Bible don't support it even. Wise men, exchanging gifts, Santa Claus, Bible had nothing to do with them. God didn't let us worship Him the way we like, but instead, He ordered us how to worship Him, and not to do the ways of pagan.
Did Jesus Christ tell us to celebrate His birth? No. However, He left explicit instructions regarding how His followers are to commemorate His death (1 Corinthians 11:23-26).
So, if Jesus didn't teach us about celebrating His birth, it is not Christian anymore, Christian is one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus.
Jesus didn't teach us to use the microphone inside the temple to preach his teachings, He didn't told us to wear pants, He didn't told us to use toothpaste, shampoo, and soap, He didn't told us to follow the Bible (that's because it was not written yet during his time), He didn't told us to do a lot of things that we are doing now, I ask you dust, and I hope you do answer this, if I do all those things which Jesus never mentioned me to do, does that make me un-christian?
can you truthfully say that you will offer your other cheek if I punch you in the face, and throw bread at me if I throw rocks at you? Answer that too.

oh and by the way, may I remind you that if you are surfing the net for your answers, copying and pasting them here without aknowledging the source is plagiarism.

Many may claim they are Christian but are they really?
Christians are those that obey the words commanded by God through His son Jesus Christ
and His commandments are not "grievous" so why burden ourselves with these "beliefs and traditions"
that are of dubious source?
those beliefs and traditions guide us to the right path. it makes it easier for us, as they serve to remind us about God, and the goodness he has.
what's wrong with that?
if i see another reply full of quotations from the bible, i'll puke.
the thing is, if you really are so adamant in obeying everything that has been written in the bible word for word, then it will be no problem for you to drag your children to the center of the town, tie them up, and invite other people to throw rocks at them until they die, becuase they were naughty and disobedient? that's in the bible, if you care to read.
i ask you, why is it that when you are proving a point, you hold before me a verse in the Bible to support your argument, and then totally ignore another part of the Bible that contradicts your point?
if you who love to quote the Bible, then don't be selective. you stand and proclaim your beliefs as the Bible is your witness, but the Bible is full of stuff you wouldn't dare practice!
Answer that!

Blast it!

You're in KSA, How does it feel to be near Christ's birthplace... i hope that would enlighten you.

I was wondering what is going on while i keep myself distant from this forum . .

Lo and behold . . . .

With what I have seen and read here, since my voluntary exclusion . . . .

I would rather be a pagan, celebrating each new morning, while enjoying the sunrise on my daily commute to work.

I would rather be a pagan, and enjoy the food for it's taste and nutrition rather than the establishment that serves it.

I would rather be called a pagan, not needing to go to church or quote from the bible just to prove my point.

I would rather be a pagan, and enjoy the wind on my face while I ride my bike, using my legs, sweating, exerting effort.

I am a pagan. I walk. I smile when a bird flies by. I rejoice with every clear day, and worry at dark clouds above. I thank God eveywhich way I can, and do not need a book or a congregation to do it.

I went through bad times, even really deep troubled times and never once did I question my reason for being here.

I am a pagan. I revel at my libido.

And so on . . .

So you guys like to challenge everybody but yourselves, that much is evident.

But it's the affliction of youth:
In your struggle to be heard, you always end up being incoherent.

And all I've seen, pardon the redundancy, is incoherence.

Failing humor?

Hah!

You guys should read comedy. they are often the straighforward comments on truth.

even your Faith.:alien:

[ for comments and violent reactions, please use any of the reply buttons.]

Blast it!

You're in KSA, How does it feel to be near Christ's birthplace... i hope that would enlighten you.
Can't asnwer my question eh? I thought so. :P
And all I've seen, pardon the redundancy, is incoherence.

Failing humor?

Hah!

You guys should read comedy. they are often the straighforward comments on truth.

even your Faith.
You're the funny one scrEaMing mANgo. Why, just a few posts ago, you yourself told us you're a devout Aglipayan.
Now you're a pagan.
You're self indulgence on trying to sound intelligent in each of your posts finally caught up to you.
Funny how you critisize our discussions while at the safety of your own bubble.
I see it now, you have nothing to share, nothing to learn, your only purpose is to pretend you're somebody and trying so hard to type intelligently, but fail miserably.
You're an Aglipayan, you're a pagan, make up your mind!

ahh, so this is what you call sharing > disputing everybody else's views.
tsk tsk tsk

I grow tired of this but . . .

This supposed to be a Kuro.Ph forum, not the Senate.

i said i was raised in a family of aglipayans.
never said i was a devoted one.

criticize?

oh boy, now I really believe you should try to read and understand first before cooking up any "witty" retort.

Really now . . .

I think it's you guys who are "pretending" to be knowledgeable.

I am a pagan.

Not some pretentious,confused,wannabe-intellect you seem to see yourselves to be.

And this is tiresome.

And you seem to thrive on petty quarrels and trivial pursuits, too much time on your hands does that to you.
Try using your hands for a change, wash clothes, clean house, all those pagan things . . . .

Hee-hee . . . .

Try life.

Nobody gets out alive.

Disappointing you is the least of my concerns. Failed your expectations? Fine by me.
It's amazing how closed your minds really are.

And yes, I have spoken my piece, although I doubt, it would make a difference on what you think.

Guys,I respect your beliefs, but discussing about religion is a very serious thing.
little knowledge is a very dangerous thing.
everyone of us have our own beliefs whom we learn since our birth,coz we Filipinos are,the so called religious people.

So you're a pagan, whoopeeedooo!!!
So what?
This discussion is a discussion, if you don't like it, create your own topic.
Thrive on petty quarrels? Trivial pursuits?
This discussion is a way for us to understand more about each other's positions.
You have nothing to positive to share here, you're the one 'rambling'. Yes, 'rambling', the word you tried to use before, but used 'wrangling' instead.
Bistado ka na, you have nothing to share, but just a poor attempt to be witty and smart at the expense of other kuronians here who are trying to keep the discussion going.
You're out of line, out of tune, out of topic, and you're outta here!

Nag luko ang PC ko kanina after reading Blaster's
if i see another reply full of quotations from the bible, i'll puke.

i don't know if my username was seen as online from 1220H TO 1430H coz if i do i would appear to unmindful of what is going on here.
i was just about to ask blaster had not my PC conk out if what he stated in that post is the bilief of the religious he was affliated to or just his own.

and give him assurance that i'll never make him puke........
sabi nga don sa pepsi commercial.....
don't worry, pare, it's sugar free!!!
pero dami ng nangyari since that time.
"have anybody have lost his shirt?"
and screaming mango, you finally did surprised me. your postings are classic though.
This thread is worth the while with all the players present.
Thanks for the concern @levijosie.
keep on posting guys, enjoy living, loving, learning!
.......and i promised to......:luvstrk:

weird norm, the thing is, when some people reply full of quotations from the bible, and hold it like it is God's law, then why can't you, and dust, and others, answer the questions I've been asking all the time.
I try to answer everything you try to throw at me, but why is it when I quote verses from the Bible that contradicts your beliefs, you all suddenly turn blind?

I grew up on a catholic school (Don Bosco), I debated with my parish priest, had lenghty discussions with the nuns in my college, not because I hate religion, but because I want to learn as much as I can about it. A lot of catholics here in Saudi Arabia have converted to Islam, simply because they don't know much about their own religion, and when faced with a muslim scholar, is no match in a debate between two religions.

So I'm sorry if I may sound rude at times, but merely quoting verses from the Bible won't stand up to reason. You have to defend it in your own words, you might once in a while quote verses to strengten your position, but throwing verses from the Bible as your primary defense will never be enough. You have to use your own words.

A muslim scholar tried to convert me one time, and he goes on an attempt to prove my religion is false. He gives me information that the depiction of Jesus in the Bible is wrong, etcetera etcetera, and when I ask him how sure are his sources, he tells me because the Koran says so.

For him, the Koran is God's law, which is understandable, if you are debating with a fellow muslim. But you see, you have to open your mind to the possibility that the person you are debating with doesn't believe the Koran. You have to find other ways to convince him.

An ugly girl joins a beauty contest, and loses. She is very upset. When asked why, she replies she's beautiful. When asked how can she say that (when it is very obvious she's not)? She replies, because my mommy says so.

See what I mean?

@Blaster,
i think when i first posted here, i tried to make sure that the
posters are all bible believers and it will be the basis of the
points being shared.
a point to clarify again...
do you reject the bible in its entirety or you still believe part of it.
this are to be considered on my future reply......:up:

I do believe in the Bible. But some of the old laws there are not applicable anymore, and I believe those stuff should be upgraded to reflect our modern culture.
Do I reject the Bible? No I don't. But I chose not to follow the old laws simply because they have grown obsolete and are not practical anymore.
How about you?

BlasterQ, i do hereby nominate you to be the next God because of your unerring views about human faith and insurmountable knowledge about people's views and beliefs... i just hope that as the next God, you will enlighten us all and i hope that you wont permit insignificant debates over human faith. and i hope you will catch Bin Laden singlehandedly and question him about his faith and views about the bible. pray for yourself also because you alone could save yourself. and i hope that you could answer the question that bothered me for the longest time now: "why do people who live near deserts almost always see visions and almost always have absurd views about human? why are thay so hot-headed? is it because of hallucination? or is it because of the intense heat that almost got their brains fried?"

as the next God, i know those questions will be too easy for you.

and as the next God, please, dont allow world war III to start from middle east.

ashes2ashes, i stated my position, supported it with reason, and totally embarrassed you because you can't support your belief in face of scrutiny.
So now you have to attack me because you can't answer the things I lay in front of you.
Just to humor you:
You must think very highly of yourself to consider yourself the authority to nominate a god, even to the point of blasphemy for referring to me as the next God.

Pssssst. Stop, you've gone to far. May message pala dito para sakin.

to BlasterQ:
Ya, thanks for telling me that. I forget that when I found out that "copy and paste method" saves time. I'll do it, nice telling me. ^^

if I do all those things which Jesus never mentioned me to do, does that make me un-christian?

no. Christ just tell us things that we need to know about salvation, that is the good news. Using microphone, soaps, wearing pants, and other "earthly" things (that we need to do in this world to maintain our life while on earth) does not mean that we disobeyed Him. But doing what Christ mentioned not to do, is another thing. That makes one disobeyed God or an anti-Christ.

can you truthfully say that you will offer your other cheek if I punch you in the face, and throw bread at me if I throw rocks at you?

If that really the verse means, it would be hard for me to let others punch my face (especially you BlasterQ because I'll guess you're a man of muscles, I mean, already adult. An adult man can not only punch a cheek but can also break one's cranium). But Christ didn't talked to the crowd in a direct way, but in parables. Offering your face when somebody hit you may not mean that you'll really let others hit you. It may mean another thing as don't take a revenge to someone who had done you wrong. (Jesus even prayed that may God forgive those people who laughed at Him), or throw bread when someone stone you may not mean the way you mean it. It would maybe like answering light words to someone that had spoken to you hard, hurting words.

I do believe in the Bible. But some of the old laws there are not applicable anymore, and I believe those stuff should be upgraded to reflect our modern culture.
Do I reject the Bible? No I don't. But I chose not to follow the old laws simply because they have grown obsolete and are not practical anymore.
How about you?

Not for supporting you for saying that old laws are obsolete for these days, and must be upgraded, for the Bible itself (again ^^) tells that the laws of God are perfect, and pure. But to upgrade the laws not anymore needed. I understood that the "old laws" you mean are the laws that prohibit us to touch unclean things (pigs, and alike), must eliminate the abominations like homosexuals, and other laws to make the human righteous enough to face God's presence. But these laws, (the old laws as what you call them), are not need to be upgraded anymore because Jesus ended them already. (I'd posted that already in my last post). Jesus said, nothing in the law well be taken until all are fulfilled. By fulfilling the laws for righteousness, (the laws you call "old laws"), Jesus finished them. Try read my last post (I'm just repeating it here). So the "old laws" or "laws for righteousness" have been ended, and are now unapplicable anymore to make human clean, because Christ cleaned him already.

Got my point?:up: :up:

I had read your post for weird norm, you also mention my nick there, that you have questions for me I did not answer. Sorry, I sometimes got lazy reading in the monitor (my eyes usually tears). I hope you'll repeat them if you want me to give you my answers (those who read this, please, don't think anymore I'm playing god, or wanna-be know-it-all, just use your common sense why I have to answer the questions cast for me).

What specific laws did Jesus end anway?
So is it now your position that Homosexuality is ok? Because the law against it has been ended by Jesus?
Is it not important anymore to keep the Sabbath day holy?
What exactly are the laws of righteousness? Can you please enumerate them here?

what? Homosexual is ok? I didn't meean that. I mean killing the homosexuals to eliminate the abominations from the nation of God, that is, Israel (of the past), because they make the camp "dirty". But being a homosexual is in the list of abominations to God, they cannot enter the "kingdom", Paul said it. Anyone that knows the meaning of righteousness can distinguise (I think the spelling is wrong) which of God's commands are for righteousness.:up: :up:

Ok, I'm learning. :)
So you mean to say, the law on killing or removing abominations have been removed by Jesus Christ, but it doesn't mean that the abominations themselves become acceptable, they are still abominations and accepting these abominations is not acceptable to God?
Is that correct?

what? Homosexual is ok? I didn't mean that. I mean the killing of homosexuals to eliminate the abominations from the nation of God, that is, Israel (of the past), because they make the camp "dirty". Jesus give a gift of salvation to anyone, thus a chance to be saved. But being a homosexual is in the list of abominations to God, they cannot enter the "kingdom", Paul said it. God never created such thing as gays. Anyone that knows the meaning of righteousness can distinguish (I think the spelling is wrong) which of God's commands are for righteousness.:up: :up:
One is the eating of "unclean meat". God cleaned them already. That's why Paul,and the apostles just wrote us that we could not eat the foods offered to idols ( idols are pagans, God hates them), blood, (Paul told us why blood cannot be eaten), and the stangled animal, because the its blood didn't able to flow).

Ok, so I guess I'll stop eating dinugu-an...
What else?
Hmmm, let me see, here's one:
Deuteronomy 22:5
Women cannot wear men's clothing and vice versa -- it's an "abomination unto the Lord."
What did Jesus say, according to Paul, about that?

How about a simple sin everybody commits... lying.
Revelation 21:8
All liars, as well as sorcerers, idolaters, and those who are fearful or unbelieving, will be cast into "the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone."

Did Jesus changed that too?

If the old laws are ended, then does that mean the Old Testament is irrelevant?

It's a good this that you still believed in the Bible (Blaster).
Having known this, i suppose we can use it to further this discussion.
Some statistics about the book......
NEW TESTAMENT STATISTICS: ? Number of books: 27
? Chapters: 260
? Verses: 7,957
? Words: 180,552

OLD TESTAMENT STATISTICS: ? Number of books: 39
? Chapters: 929
? Verses: 23,114
? Words: 602,585
Despite this, we are sure that there is no contradiction
if it is traced as it was originally written. God assured that.
You seem to find that there is contradictions and i hope i can
it.
You said that i reason with these too many verses and not with my own words.
Well i think the bible will explain itself so i don't need to add much of my own words.
God said......
?All the words of my mouth are in righteousness;there is nothing froward or perverse in them. T
hey are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.?
Now, so that this will not be too long, do not outrightly consider that you need to obey the
commandment written in the old testament. This are the Mosaic Law, for the Israelites.
Some of these are already changed and others revised by Jesus Christ. He fulfilled the Law.
God said, this is my beloved Son, Hear ye Him.....
Ex. The Israelites are commanded to be cicumcised, but this was repealed as Christ commanded.
Christ commanded that looking at somebody with lust is already a sin and this is more strict
than that stated in the 10 commandments. And so on.....
Try reading in the time of Christ onwards and what is commanded there are the commanded to be follow
and those that contradict or stated less in the old testament are repealed already.
I hope to answer some of your previous Q's next time.
By the way, being a homosexual or gay is not a sin. Same sex relationship is.
Sensitivity.... not ridicule..........people.

I never read anything about Jesus removing, or revising the law about women wearing men's clothes.
since now it is acceptable that women wear men's clothes, is it assumed therefore that this specific law been removed or revised by Jesus?
We have to be concrete and our stand well supported.

Dust, you stated many times that God never change the law. That what happened instead is that Jesus ended the law of righteousness.
Now here's weird norm's post that contradicts your stand:
This are the Mosaic Law, for the Israelites.
Some of these are already changed and others revised by Jesus Christ. He fulfilled the Law.

ot:

personal opinion lang po...

you can debate on your faiths and beliefs in reference to this thread's topic BUT please, do away with your personal attacks.

THANKS

Despite this, we are sure that there is no contradiction
if it is traced as it was originally written. God assured that.
You seem to find that there is contradictions and i hope i can
it.
I'll give you some contradictions.
The names of the 12 disciples -

According to Mark 3:16-18 and Matthew 10:2-4:
1. Simon (aka Peter)
2. Andrew
3. James (son of Zebedee)
4. John
5. Philip
6. Bartholomew
7. Thomas
8. Matthew
9. James (son of Alphaeus)
10. Lebbaeus (surname Thaddeus)
11. Simon (the Canaanite)
12. Judas (Iscariot)

According to Luke 6:14-16, and the Book Acts 1:13:
1. Simon (aka Peter)
2. Andrew
3. James
4. John
5. Philip
6. Bartholomew
7. Thomas
8. Matthew
9. James (son of Alphaeus)
10. Judas (James' brother)
11. Simon (Zeolotes)
12. Judas (Iscariot)

To whom did Jesus make his first post-resurrection appearance?

The two Marys
Matthew 28:1, 9
In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.... And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

Mary Magdalene
Mark 16:9
Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

John 20:11-14
But Mary stood without at the sepulchre weeping ... and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus.

Cleopas and another
Luke 24:13-31
And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus.... And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days? ... And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them. And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.

Cephas
1 Corinthians 15:4-5
And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve.

@ WSK....i second the motion.
let me add, avoid harsh words that inflames the most sensitive sides of us. i noticed 3 members "walked" out of the discussions already. please maintain our civility and diplomacy.
thanks all!
let's continue....

honga.
yan sabi ko na ba eh.
little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
discussing things- to the nonsense.

This is very serious and interesting discussion, but can we practice - "SPEAK WITHOUT OFFENDING, LISTEN WITHOUT DEFENDING". Peace everyone.

I third the motion my Bro.hummer2k,It's good that we know about the word of God (bible) ,but we must humble ourselves to seek more of it,
to have more intimate relationship with our creator in that way ,our Lord
of heaven and earth will reveal Himself to us.Let's examine the greatest
confrontation of our Lord Jesus Christ with satan on the book of Matthew
chapter 4:1-11 and we will learn a lot about how to confront and how our Lord show humility to the devil,because it seems that satan is very well
versed he quotes the bible too!!!!!

Hey! weird norm's idea is not the same to mine. Mine is, nothing in the laws was revised.

Once upon a time, somebody started this thread and asked us whether at one point of our lives, we ever questioned the origins of the different rituals done in our different churches... and i presume, also questioned us indirectly why do people nurture faith towards a higher entity...

Some people stated their beliefs and reasons behind each belief that they post in here. Some people (including me) got angry about other people's views and beliefs because it totally contradicted to their own beliefs and to what they have been taught. Others just refused to be included (including me) by not sharing what they really really believe because it may start another unending debate about who's more righteous or not. about who's more learned and who's misinformed or who's a nitwit...

Haven't we realized that the unending war in Israel is based on their passionate belief in a religion that they say is perfect? Haven't we realized that Hitler killed many Jews just because they believed in a God that he could not see and believe himself?

Haven't we realized that people from before our time suffered because of their beliefs?

the martyrs...Joan of Arc and the like.

and even Ptolemy, a man of science was killed because of his factual statement about nature. (he was deemed as heretic because of his Heliocentric theory which the church said that it is an abomination against the Catholic faith.)

Haven't we realized that by just asking one question about Faith, about God, about Religion...we are starting war all over again? not with missiles but with sharp and hurting words...this topic is too broad for us humans to decipher even with the background studies and knowledge that we have. just too broad. we are just but human.

and i joined in...not realizing that this is futile. people have beliefs and people have faith. no question about that. i have too.

and even Ptolemy, a man of science was killed because of his factual statement about nature. (he was deemed as heretic because of his Heliocentric theory which the church said that it is an abomination against the Catholic faith.Do you mean that Ptolemy was killed by RC because of his heliocentric theory? I think Ptolemy's theory was where RC get their view about the universe, the the Earth is the center and other planets including the sun revolve around it.. That's why when Copernius and Galileo stated that the heliocentric view is wrong, they are both forced to recant what they say by frightening them with turtore or death.

honga.
yan sabi ko na ba eh.
little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
discussing things- to the nonsense.
Not to offend you or anything, but I think this is not nonsense.
You may think this is nonsense because maybe you yourself cannot find the answers to the questions asked here, and while others may consider it as a challenge to find answers in order to broaden one's knowledge about a certain subject, others cannot accept it and chose to go blind and go on denial.
This is a serious discussion the benefits of which will aid us all in defending our faith later on in life if we encounter people who will try to convert us to their religion.
If you are not prepared for the possible questions they will throw at you, you will feel stupid because you will know that the person trying to convert you knows more about your religion than you.
If you can find answers to my challenges, you answer, and when you can't, you call them nonsense?

Haven't we realized that by just asking one question about Faith, about God, about Religion...we are starting war all over again? not with missiles but with sharp and hurting words...this topic is too broad for us humans to decipher even with the background studies and knowledge that we have. just too broad. we are just but human.
You ask questions because you want to know more about it. What's wrong with that? You speak of people who started wars because of it, but how many are they compared to the infinite number of everyday people who ask questions about God? It may have started a war with some people, but I am 100% sure that the majority of those who ask questions ended up understanding and learning more.
That's how we educate our kids about God, by letting them ask things they don't understand about God. We will never learn enough, but we try to learn everyday, that's how God made us.
The topic is too broad for us to decipher? Maybe for you, but some of us value knowledge, and the pursuit of knowledge is always unending. If you can't face the challenge, that's ok. But I will keep asking questions and finding answers, and it will be unending, but at least I keep on learning.
You complain that by asking questions about faith we are starting war all over again. Is this really what you think? Don't you know that you are just like those responsible for the inquisition? They burn people because they asked questions? I can't believe you are suggesting that we should not ask questions and just believe everything being spoonfed to us.
Why can't you people see the positive side of things? Why is it that you always see the negative?
This is a healthy discussion with positive results.
We are just but human? God gave us dominion of all living things, and God made us in his own image. He even sacrificed Jesus on the cross for us, and we are just but human? We should be proud of what God has given us, of what God has done for us, of what God has sacrificed for us. I'm happy to be alive, and proud to proclaim that God gave me this life and the mind to ask questions in search of answers. I am NOT just but human, and so are you. You should be grateful.

I saw about a peck of counterfeit dollars once. Did I go to the window and throw away all my good dollars? No! Yet you reject Christianity because there are hypocrites, or counterfeit Christians.
- William E. Biederwolf

And as usual, people suddenly turned blind with my post about contradictions in the Bible. :(

Not to offend you or anything, but I think this is not nonsense.
You may think this is nonsense because maybe you yourself cannot find the answers to the questions asked here, and while others may consider it as a challenge to find answers in order to broaden one's knowledge about a certain subject, others cannot accept it and chose to go blind and go on denial.
This is a serious discussion the benefits of which will aid us all in defending our faith later on in life if we encounter people who will try to convert us to their religion.
If you are not prepared for the possible questions they will throw at you, you will feel stupid because you will know that the person trying to convert you knows more about your religion than you.
If you can find answers to my challenges, you answer, and when you can't, you call them nonsense?

sorry brod, i don't want to discuss with you.
kasi hindi kita ka level.
papunta ka pa lang, pauwi na ako.

sorry brod, i don't want to discuss with you.
kasi hindi kita ka level.
papunta ka pa lang, pauwi na ako.
With all due respect, if you don't want to join, then don't join.
You don't have the right to call our discussions nonsense.
I have recieved private messages telling me that they are learning a lot from this discussion, and I plan to continue it.
If it is nonsense to you, that's because you can't defend yourself, and you are in denial.
Papauwi ka na nga, wala ka namang dala pauwi.

@BlasterQ,
the meek shall inherit the earth. sorry that i have not answered most of your questions. just be patient. it will come.
i've got two reasons...........
1. the gray area in me is kinda slow these days coz i've got an appeal in the other thread that up to now is not acted upon to whom it was addressed. felt so sad about that.
2. to some questions i don't readily have the answer coz i won't profess to know it all regarding the scriptures but i know there is a reason or answers to these questions and my trust in the bible is never diminished even a bit.

you've really given some valid questions and may this thread be a tool to educate.

here's to reaching higher ground, truth thou liars abound.....

my post with this quotation.......
I saw about a peck of counterfeit dollars once. Did I go to the window and throw away all my good dollars? No! Yet you reject Christianity because there are hypocrites, or counterfeit Christians.
- William E. Biederwolf

is primarily addressed to ashes2ashes.
and i don't need too many words for this to be understood.

also......
((The most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20.))


also......
sorry brod, i don't want to discuss with you.
kasi hindi kita ka level.
papunta ka pa lang, pauwi na ako.

post like this will not be of help. some things are better left unsaid. to the weak, this will only cause them to "loose their religion".......
i'm not saying this as if i don't make mistakes.... we all do.
the best thing to do to a mistake is to correct it otherwise another mistake is done.:up:

incidentally, the housemartins on my headset singing...build, build, build.:luvstrk:

Do you mean that Ptolemy was killed by RC because of his heliocentric theory? I think Ptolemy's theory was where RC get their view about the universe, the the Earth is the center and other planets including the sun revolve around it.. That's why when Copernius and Galileo stated that the heliocentric view is wrong, they are both forced to recant what they say by frightening them with turtore or death.

Sorry...it was Copernicus...:x

They burn people because they asked questions? I can't believe you are suggesting that we should not ask questions and just believe everything being spoonfed to us.
We are just but human? God gave us dominion of all living things, and God made us in his own image. He even sacrificed Jesus on the cross for us, and we are just but human? We should be proud of what God has given us, of what God has done for us, of what God has sacrificed for us. I'm happy to be alive, and proud to proclaim that God gave me this life and the mind to ask questions in search of answers. I am NOT just but human, and so are you. You should be grateful.

I do not intend to just believe everything that is spoonfed to us. actually, i also question the reliability of the bible sometimes...i do ask many questions because of contradicting concepts that come across my readings...DEAD SEA SCROLLS DECEPTION...ever came across it?

the bible is a compilation of a story of different generations which endured through time with a culture different from ours. some, if not all of its contents are applicable to us, some are applicable to the situations facing us. it doesnt dictate us on how should we think or exercise our freewill. it doesnt even dictate us to live suspended inancient beliefs and traditions. the important message it holds out onto us is that there is HOPE for us all despite all the unending questions that come before us.

i do not have to defend the ideologies i believe in from you. i have Faith in a God who is forgiving, understanding, and broadminded. He gives unconditional love and cherishes me as His creature.

I AM JUST BUT HUMAN...i do not question God's purpose because i cant think like Him...i do not understand the universe as he understands it...i am just but human. i am not God and so are you.

I saw about a peck of counterfeit dollars once. Did I go to the window and throw away all my good dollars? No! Yet you reject Christianity because there are hypocrites, or counterfeit Christians.
- William E. Biederwolf

Why reject Christians for the misguided actions of other people?

The true God of the bible commanded to love even our enemies so why think that these are Christians?
Haven't we realized that the unending war in Israel is based on their passionate belief in a religion that they say is perfect? Haven't we realized that Hitler killed many Jews just because they believed in a God that he could not see and believe himself?

Haven't we realized that people from before our time suffered because of their beliefs?

the martyrs...Joan of Arc and the like.

and even Ptolemy, a man of science was killed because of his factual statement about nature. (he was deemed as heretic because of his Heliocentric theory which the church said that it is an abomination against the Catholic faith.)


These are not God's people. People may claim to know or believe in God but their actions will bear them out if they are of God.

I saw about a peck of counterfeit dollars once. Did I go to the window and throw away all my good dollars? No! Yet you reject Christianity because there are hypocrites, or counterfeit Christians.
- William E. Biederwolf

Why reject Christians for the misguided actions of other people?

The true God of the bible commanded to love even our enemies so why think that these are Christians?


These are not God's people. People may claim to know or believe in God but their actions will bear them out if they are of God.

I am merely pointing out that this kind of discussion (about religion) almost always generates alienation among us.

. . .and yes, weird norm and ashes2ashes, i agree with both your observation.

I am in fact, learning something new everyday.

But . . . .

I should point out,like I always do, the subject Religion affects all aspects of our life, that is why my contributions[ or non-contributions, ] here are somewhat askew, but if you think about it, all things we do has some connection with our faith.

That is why, even with blaster's apparent combative stance, i still visit this thread, all because I may have something to ponder.:cool:

I am merely pointing out that this kind of discussion (about religion) almost always generates alienation among us.

and i just want to point out that those bad things that happen before does not merit us to do just the same.
these threads are just for sharing of ideas,
not forcing one's own. and not.......
start another unending debate about who's more righteous or not. about who's more learned and who's misinformed or who's a nitwit...


i've learned here and it's been a pleasant time......:cool:

me too i relly liked visiting this thread.....

Screaming Mango, I have no beef with you, but your habit of picking up smart sounding retorts from the internet or movies or books, and posting it here in reaction to our discussion to make yourself appear smart and funny, with no honest attempt to contribute will always invite less than 'nice' reactions from me and others.
Now if you can just apply those smart remarks correctly, and share to us your own opinions (not opinions by some dead pilosopher etc.), then maybe we can rid away with the 'combative' stance you're talking about.
What do you say?

Screaming Mango, I have no beef with you, but your habit of picking up smart sounding retorts from the internet or movies or books, and posting it here in reaction to our discussion to make yourself appear smart and funny, with no honest attempt to contribute will always invite less than 'nice' reactions from me and others.
Now if you can just apply those smart remarks correctly, and share to us your own opinions (not opinions by some dead pilosopher etc.), then maybe we can rid away with the 'combative' stance you're talking about.
What do you say?
hmmm all those who contributed to the bible is dead, so i guess you're guilty of that too? [ ooooh, and what is that on your signature?]

And who made you an authority on how a person should think or say things?

"you shouldn't be surprised if they won't listen to you when you think they are wrong - you don't listen eihter.
the world doesn't revolve around you, where your idea is everything. the reality is, we're just as guilty as everybody. if you can't accept that, then tough luck." > read your own diatribe, I'm beginning to think you are really just talking to yourself.



come on blasterQ, mingle with the crowd, try reading other threads to see anf feel the community, not just keeping yourself into this thread.

I may add more, but for what? I was merely urging you guys to be more broad with the discussion, instead you dismiss evreybody not on your wavelength.

I've seen your profile.

And it explains why you are what you are.:cool:

Yup, GOD must have been pretty proud when HE made you.

Read your earlier posts. It all started when you poke fun at us, and you expect us to laugh it out?
The problem with you is that you want to poke fun at our remarks, then you run away. Para kang miron. You never had anything to share. You are playing it safe.
Oh yeah, I've seen your profile too, including your blog, you try too hard to promote yourself.

Read your earlier posts. It all started when you poke fun at us, and you expect us to laugh it out?
The problem with you is that you want to poke fun at our remarks, then you run away. Para kang miron. You never had anything to share. You are playing it safe.
Oh yeah, I've seen your profile too, including your blog, you try too hard to promote yourself.
You've turned this thread into your own personal lair.
Tsk. You assume too much.

Very well, have it your way.

God is an artist. He made you in his likeness. Be flattered and honored. He made us as beautiful as Angels.

But then Angels have ambitions too.

And so do you.

Don't forget whom you owe your existence.

Source: http://screamingmango.blogs.friendster.com/my_blog/

Do you really believe that? I thought you're a pagan?

I think it's a misnomer to call Halloween a "holiday". Many days on the calendar are derived from pagan origins. This does not necessarily mean that these days are automatically heretical in nature. Much of Halloween is based on superstition and folklore rather than fact.

If I remember correctly, it came about because it was believed that it was the day that the evil spirits would try and take your soul. So people started dressing up as evil spirits to fool them. Or something like that. The Jack-o-lanterns were meant to scare away evil spirits. Etc etc etc.

Personally, I think the lore of halloween belong next to Hiwaga and Aliwan komiks, rather than next to genuine spirituality. I don't have a problem with kids dressing up as their favorite superheroes, or that kind of stuff. That's part of the fun of being a kid, getting to play dress up and pretend. I personally would not let my children dress up as something like the grim reaper, or the devil, or a witch, etc. Not because I think it's evil, but because I think it's disrespectful to our beliefs.

Many churches, like ours, have pumpkin patch parties, or harvest parties on the 31st, that are carnivals where the kids are allowed to dress up in a costume. A nice alternative, if you ask me, and a real blessing. My kids will be going, then they'll be out doing the door-to-door thing.

Also, I don't think you "celebrate" the day by engaging in some of the customs, like dressing up or going to a costume party. That's like saying that people "celebrate" Memorial Day when they go to a barbeque...we "participate", not celebrate.

I don't think it's an offense to God to engage in some of the benign practices. However, I do think it's an offense to God if we begin calling out spirits, or using ouija boards, etc. etc. There's a fine line here. If we trivialize the ungodly aspects, then Satan wins. But, if we make more of it than it is, then we give Satan credit for something he doesn't deserve, and that, too, would be his victory.

What surprises me the most is the people who are against halloween activities have no problem watching t.v. and movies that have killing and violence in them the rest of the year and see nothing wrong with that.

And if that wasn't enough, remember that it is a church holiday, but for a different reason. October 31st is also Reformation Day here in the U.S., the days that Martin Luther posted his list of grievances to the church door. On top of that, All Saits Day, which is actually November 1st, begins in the Philippines.

just when i thought that this thread will be a profitable venue of exchange of ideas, there came the "oh yeah, you can't get away with that" syndrome struck.
be reminded that this is the "our faith and pagan traditions thread". let's respect people's belief if not so, make correction with caution.

pasensya na, naunahan ko yata si big brother ng thread na ito sa pag pacify sa mga posters....

nasan na nga ba si kuya pran???:cool:

anyway, let's keep on posting guys and maybe next time sealed it with a kiss.......

just when i thought that this thread will be a profitable venue of exchange of ideas, there came the "oh yeah, you can't get away with that" syndrome struck.
be reminded that this is the "our faith and pagan traditions thread". let's respect people's belief if not so make correction with caution.

pasensya na, naunahan ko yata si big brother ng thread na ito sa pag pacify sa mga posters....

nasan na nga ba si kuya pran???:cool:

anyway, let's keep on posting guys and maybe next time sealed it with a kiss.......

Sorry if I may have had something to do with this. . . er. . . breach of protocol . . . even pagan mangoes act human sometimes . . .

Okay, from now on, I'll just ask questions where I think this old man needs clarification . . .:cool:

OT...You can argue with someones' words, but its hard to argue with someones' being. .

too much fun too much steam,
we all get carried away from time to time.
recently happened to me and i'll be lucky
if i was really forgiven...:-X

@balatkayo
Many churches, like ours, have pumpkin patch parties, or harvest parties
on the 31st, that are carnivals where the kids are allowed to dress up in a costume.
A nice alternative, if you ask me, and a real blessing. My kids will be going,
then they'll be out doing the door-to-door thing.
so in your church, this practice is also called halloween?
hope you wont mind me asking, old men like me, too need
clarification from time to time.:cool:

@balatkayo
Many churches, like ours, have pumpkin patch parties, or harvest parties
on the 31st, that are carnivals where the kids are allowed to dress up in a costume.
A nice alternative, if you ask me, and a real blessing. My kids will be going,
then they'll be out doing the door-to-door thing.

so in your church, this practice is also called halloween?
hope you wont mind me asking, old men like me, too need
clarification from time to time.:cool:

Ah, you lost me there guys. I grew up in Paete, Laguna and must admit the whole "Halloween" thing is really alien to me. I read about it, saw it on film, read it in the news but still, I always thought Trick or Treating is an American thing [ my nephews and nieces in LA are really into it come November ]. Aglipayans like their big brother Roman Catholic Church, are now beginning to adapt that tradition. Pagan mixed with Christianity? We have a Salibanda Festival where people dress up in red, parade the Sto.Nino all over town, getting drunk along the way, brisk " Sta. Clara Pinong-pino" being played by the drenched band, and yes, it was sanctioned by the church, both Aglipayan and RC has their own parade. Then November comes and it was just lighting candles, offering prayers and staying with the dead [ Ama died when I was 2] till the wee hours of November 2. That was then. Now we have Halloween. Trick or Treats.

But, yes I think, it goes up there with the Sto. Nino Feast almost every town has, adds color to our life.
:cool:

@balatkayo...so in your church, this practice is also called halloween?...hope you wont mind me asking, old men like me, too need
clarification from time to time.:cool:...Yes, as a cultural event, not a "religious" practice.

oh....
I think haloween's a kind of spiritualism.

oh....
I think haloween's a kind of spiritualism....I believe so, too!...as I have mentioned, we just participate, not celebrate.

Mexico, also a heavily religious [predominantly Christian/Catholic] country, has its " Day of The Dead" tradition, where people parade in scary renditions of death.

Brazil has its "Mardi Gras".

Yes, I agree it must be something cultural. And people do participate.

Maraming tradisyon na mali. pero since modern man ka na ngayon pwede mo ng i-justify na itama yun sa iyong sarili o sa iyong pamilya.

Halimbwa: Yun paghalik sa mga santo at santa. actually mga role model yun ng catholic chruch. hindi naman dapat halikan..follow mo lang yun ginawa nila kung gusto mo.

ok lang siguro yun manalanagin ka sa kanila. pag natupad pwede mong sabihing salamat (refering dun sa santo) pag hindi (kulang ka sa gawa kasi nasa KANYA ang awa) di ba..

Maraming tradisyon na mali. pero since modern man . . . . . . pag natupad pwede mong sabihing salamat (refering dun sa santo) pag hindi (kulang ka sa gawa kasi nasa KANYA ang awa) di ba..

Kung sabagay, talagang 'yung mga nakalakihan natin, di lahat ay tama. Pero dahil, tumatanda na tayo, we can choose what traditions we can do without and which ones we can teach to our children, di baga?

from ashes2ashesSorry...it was Copernicus...
Oh yeah, CoperniCus.

from darkknight ok lang siguro yun manalanagin ka sa kanila. pag natupad pwede mong sabihing salamat (refering dun sa santo) pag hindi (kulang ka sa gawa kasi nasa KANYA ang awa) di ba
Sa akin lang ha? Matanong ko lang, 'di ba may Diyos naman na nangakong kung hihingi tayo sa kanya, magbibigay siya? 'Bat naman kailangan pang manalangin sa mga santo at santa? Nangangahulugan lang na kulang o walang paniniwala sa Diyos. I remember our ancestors long ago, marami din silang sinasamba. May diyosa sa ulan, may diyos sa araw, sa kidlat sa katotohanan, sa ani, at marami pa. Parang walang pinag-iba sa ngayon, may santo para sa ulan, sa anihan, sa nawawalang bagay... Hahay, high-tech nga sa kaalaman, mala-caveman naman sa paniniwala. SWAK! mwaahh!

This may sound absurd to most people, but, I have been asked countless times what religious denomination I'm in.

I'm not really sure.

Here's why:

I mentioned being born on a family that follows the Aglipayan Church [ Iglesia Filipina Independiente ], whixh is really not that different from Katoliko Romano. My cousins in Iligan are members of The Seventh Day Adventist Church , [pinay knows them as schoolmates], a brother who's in the US Navy was a Mormon, and now are members of the Born Again Christians of Vallejo,CA. A tita in Hawaii is a lapsed Pentecost, anothet tita is a devout Baptist. I have known people during my college days as either Mohammedans, Hindu Monks, and an American whose practicing Scientology.

I also said there is more pagan in me than the current Christian standard of being a Christian. Why, you might ask again? Because I go to church, when I can, to revel at the artistry and patience it took to built them, also the skill of making the images of saints and the altar itself. I only say "Thank you" to The Creator when I do pray. Each sunshine is a new celebration for me, rain brings forth blessings, night promises day, day will have night as reprieve.

I have no hero-worship in me. I don't rally and hoot during a Ginebra game on tv. Once I did, and it was when Pacquiao restored my belief in the Filipino spirit of enduring and prevalence.

When I am in the mountains [ Bicol will be my place for my old age ] I say " tabi-tabi po" to unseen sentinels guarding the meadows and orchards.

And everyday, I eat everything GOD has set on my table, because each meal is also a celebration of life. It puzzles me why people will nibble at their food and call it dinner.

Maybe there are distinctions between pagan and Christianity.

Maybe I just don't know where the line is . . . .

...I believe so, too!...as I have mentioned, we just participate, not celebrate.
To participate is to celebrate, to celebrate is to participate. There's no difference between them. It's just like this:
A friend ask you to help him take his neighbor's PC in secret and you help him for friendship's sake. By helping him steal other's thing, you also steal, and can be also called "thief". Participating in pagan pratices, is just like observing them, and celebrating them, and will makes ya heathen.

To participate is to celebrate, to celebrate is to participate. There's no difference between them. It's just like this:
A friend ask you to help him take his neighbor's PC in secret and you help him for friendship's sake. By helping him steal other's thing, you also steal, and can be also called "thief". Participating in pagan pratices, is just like observing them, and celebrating them, and will makes ya heathen....
Interestingly, much of what we associate with Halloween is based on myth, not reality. Black cats and witches on broomsticks, for example, were inventions of the anti-pagan movements that sprang up in medieval times. Other things, like carved pumpkins, are strictly American customs from the federal period.

The bottom line is, though certain aspects of it have pagan roots (as do Christmas and Easter), it has long since shed its religious significance, and is now a purely secular custom. We use words like "celebrate" and "holiday", but neither accurately describes the customs associated with it today.

It's not a holiday, and we don't "celebrate" it. However, we "participate" (take part) in this "American" custom and I always look forward to taking my kids trick-or-treating, and passing out candy. Last year I dressed up as a baseball player...my two sons, a soldier and a cop, and my daugther a doctor.

pardon the preachy tone......
@balatkayo5,
i may just say that we must be aware why or what we are "participating"
into whenever we do so.
i don't know specifically or how halloween came about, what it is for.
this is not specifically for this event only.

we must be sure what we are participating into or else unknowingly, we could be doing part in some abomination, giving praise in vain.:-/

I was really amazed. You dressed like someone and pretend to be one, so is your son, and your daughter, doing the practices of how the Haloween is celebrated, and at the same time you don't celebrate it?

Butting in on your quite interesting and perplexing discussions but, it seems, when we talk about these things, [ old and new traditions coming about ] we forget Ethnology. Practices and Traditions flourish because of the environment and the geographical setting for an individual, or in the generalized form, a community. The Arabs view Europeans as Barbarians [ eons ago ], Americans tend to look at Filipinos as subordinates [ still does ], English dismiss other races as inferior, Hitler once thought he could cleanse the world [ in whatever definition of WORLD he had ] of the inferior and the unclean. Here, our islands tend to aggravate the territorial and tribal lines. And all of these, Religion and pagan ways have melded into different mutations.

But, yes, discussions like these really make for good mental exercise, but if you will ask those who are bringing up children [ like most of us ] there are some things that add to the mystery of life, like Santa Claus, or the Boogeyman, or the unseen Sentinels of the Forest. I myself, will be going back to basiscs after 4 more years of office work, and start digging and tilling soil, and be with my family after 6pm to enjoy a feast an the table, thanking God for the soil that brought forth such bounty.

Now THAT is really a mix of pagan and Christian traditions . . .B-)

yes, faith is not inborn to us humans. faith will be influenced
by what's around us, i hope i'm reading the term used
by eman right (ethnology).
our faith maybe influenced by all these, our elders, and all the things
we hear,read but in the end, there is a God that will guide us
to know His will for us if we surrender to Him all our actions and
follow the good dictate of our heart for it is in the nature of man
that he choose what is good. :up:

I was really amazed. You dressed like someone and pretend to be one, so is your son, and your daughter, doing the practices of how the Haloween is celebrated, and at the same time you don't celebrate it?You know what?...you really just can't understand or know a person 'till you get to know them...Being in a crowd of atheist doesn't make one an aetheist...Being with a murderer or rapist doesn't make a person a criminal, or having a "junky" friend doesn't make you a drug addict. You can do and say all the "good and the right " things in the world but still...it would be NOTHING in the eyes of the LORD. I believe, the LORD looks what is in your HEART...I don't "pretend", I just want my kids to have a good time just like any other ordinary kids here in America. We do it not to "scare" people, as a fact, my kids doesn't want scary costumes anyway...and they know what the real "evils" are...we just want to have fun.

My understanding of Halloween as a Pagan holiday is not something bad. It is more like superstitions, they leave food for the spirits as an offering to not harm the people of the house. My understanding of Pagans isn't negative either. Generally, Pagans are good, try to do the right thing, and believe in good/bad karma. They pray as well and have a profound respect for all living things...And yes, there are the bad apples that give Pagans a bad name. However, sadly those end up being people that are spreading rumors. Like the salem witch trials.
Anyway, I am not up for debating my thoughts on Pagans. My point was Halloween isn't a bad or wicked holiday like many tend to believe, and it depends on how you do it. Some Christians may disagree, but I don't think that what I do with my kids is a part of all that's wrong with halloween.

True enough, child rearing changes everything a person's view of life. It's more on how to explain all those things we learned growing up to the new generation. Some of the wisdom learned will have to be unlearned and weighed to accomodate the fresher view of the young. MIxed emotions may set in as you try to balance between what works and what else you can discard. Bringing up a child in a world where things get really confusing is a very stout task, add to that the dogmas and irrational ways we grew up in will have to be revisited for the sake of your child"s developmental years.

Sad to say, the scary part of child rearing bears heavily on our Faith and those people consider as pagan traditions. There are no handbooks for being a parent, and that is why I try to assimilate and absorb everything here at Kuro, for wehat may or may not help me with my gargantuan duties as a father. B-)

My point was Halloween isn't a bad or wicked holiday like many tend to believe, and it depends on how you do it. Some Christians may disagree, but I don't think that what I do with my kids is a part of all that's wrong with halloween.I cannot arfue with that, that's your opinion, your beliefs, a friend of mine said to me last time that opinions cannot be wrong. It depends on how people believe on it.:up: :up:
But for me, pagans are bad, and doing any pagan practicies makes one a pagan. You can't also argue with that.

I cannot arfue with that, that's your opinion, your beliefs, a friend of mine said to me last time that opinions cannot be wrong. It depends on how people believe on it.:up: :up:
But for me, pagans are bad, and doing any pagan practicies makes one a pagan. You can't also argue with that....What's bad about store owners and neighbors being nice to kids and giving them a piece of candy? I want my kids to have a basic trust that most people are decent and, believe it or not, they get that idea on Halloween...I remember when my kids were little there were some occasions where relatives and neighbors spooked them and I didn't think it was funny...In spite of what I've said, I know there are real witches and occult practices and crimes committed that are real evils. Some in our culture make light of these things or celebreate them, especially at halloween or all saints day, and this is certainly not of God. And I've calmly talked to my kids about these things. Thru this, plus our not-scary costumes, we overcome evil with GOOD and still honor GOD...Again, we join for FUN not to scare.

I was born at the Age of Aquarious, grew up with books like Kama Sutra and Children Around The World huddled side by side on out dusty shelves, Astrology proudly printed on every tabloid and broadsheet i deliver every morning. Feng Shui making a ruckus among businessmen, Sto.Ninos adorn most evry home I went into. I took part in every Salibanda Festival [ The Paete version of Sto.Nino Feast ] while being bombarded with water and intoxicating fluids. Celebrated Sabado de Gloria in my youth dancing with every maiden who's willing to hold hands with me. Attended and assisted mass, as one of the sakristans. Toiled bells with every Holy Week Procession. Stayed quiet the whole day on Good Friday. Embarked on anuual Tree Planting hikes promoted by my High School. Got bruises from fistfights and petty skirmishes. Sang glorius hymns as a member of the church choir, made passes at the prettiest girl there. Attended Catechism classes, but I wouldn't know if I leartned anything. Got disillusioned when a very respected and idolized Sister Luz, whose dreams of becoming a Nun, was just a ploy to get us into signing up forms for the Priesthood, and realized she is as human as I am. Became a member of the PASILAG [ Pantanghalang Sining ng Laguna ] a theater group with Nationalistic inclinations and a natural aversion to anything un-Filipino-ish ways. Each performance started with a prayer and ended with more prayers of thanks. Got invited to all sorts of prayer meetings, prayer rallies, Bible meets and studies, but almost always, it's the bottled meetings that kept me coming back. Fell down too many times. Stole some things along the way. Renewed Faith everytime I am in the mountains. Murmurred " tabi-tabi po" when I walk through the bukid after dark. And so on . . .and so forth . . .

I wouldn't base my Faith and Beliefs on things I haven't experienced, but the Scriptures are a big help. My stand may be confusing to most of you, but point me to someone who isn't as confused as everybody else. But I sincerely follow the path layed down for me by my forefathers, fixing stuff that I know how to fix, evading traps, slowing down to make idle chat with newfound friends, but always moving forward.

Paganism maybe a lonely road nowadays, less travelled, rougher compared to the Christian High Way, where everybody travels with the speed of light. But I'd rather walk and enjoy the view, then be overwhelmed by billboards and speeding modern day dogma . . . .

@ Screaming Mango,
i can't possibly add anything of my experience on your vivid recall of your earlier years. I surely can relay to that, the discovering years. well just makes me think........ still practicing those things? you could have been a true blue Catholic.
NSO was late with this data that resulted for this post to be edited........<<<Eight out of ten of the household population in the Philippines were Roman Catholics (81.04 percent). Islam (5.06 percent) and Evangelicals (2.82 percent) followed. The remaining 11.08 percent were either Aglipayan, Iglesia ni Cristo, and others.>>>
But then, this make me recall an experience, 21 yrs ago when on the way running an errand for Nanay, i saw a shooting star, and luckily i utter.... saya yumaman kami.....
well this wish roots for the fact that my Tatay was in Saudi at that time, forced himself to work there so that we, the four of his children continue our studies.
This has been his biggest dream that we may never be like them that never got to college. now, i have to go back to the shooting star......
Luckily, i uttered my wish, but no luck. Wish never came true. Though in the back of my mind i was hoping may the next shooting star will be better.
Good thing there was no Wowowee in those days, where i could be still believing to take chances at luck.
Life goes on, and completely forget about wishing upon a star having parents that have guided us to persever in any humble way to attain our dreams.
Getting out of topic?
I can't tell, is there really a thin line between the right faith and paganism?
For now, i can only say, a big world of difference.
Thanks Screaming Mango for making those politicians to be on their toes, no not that, i mean for making these threads colorul.:up:

ano natigil na ba ang debate nyo. naku magkakagalit lang kayo nyan.
Sa halip ay pagusapan nyo kung gaano kabuti ang dios sa atin.
Yung maganda ang pagusapan nyo yung nakaktaba ng kalooban.
okay ba mga igan.

Ano ka ba, kulang sa pansin?
If you want to join, then join, let's see what you've got to say.
Pero judging from your very few posts, I don't think you are smart enough. Kaya dinadala mo na lang sa ganyan, para kunyari matalino ka. :P

@ Screaming Mango,
<<<Eight out of ten of the household population in the Philippines were Roman Catholics (81.04 percent). Islam (5.06 percent) and Evangelicals (2.82 percent) followed. The remaining 11.08 percent were either Aglipayan, Iglesia ni Cristo, and others.>>>

The Aglipayans, bless their Patriotic Souls, are losing ground among the throng. But I still drop by the old church whenever I'm in my hometown. But it looks more like a gymnasium now than a church. But the skillful art in there can still raise the interest of the Vatican. [ too many BUTS ]

Oops, I forgot. I am a Lapsed Aglipayan, unorthodox pagan and a receding Hedonist, just so our other spirited Kuroniancitizendenizens have an idea of what a mango is all about.:cool:

Trivia: Steve Vai has a beautifully played song with the same title.

Anyway, yes, there is a world of difference between pagan and Christian way of life. But we forget, our concept of pagan living are never updated. Just because it is a forgotten way of life doesn't mean it has been erased entirely. We must look around for traces. See that man in a tie and with a suitcase? He could be a Christian who smiles because God loves him but quickly deviates from his usual way to work just because a black cat or a ladder was in his way today.

See what I mean?

Reaching for a higher learning you must seek handholds to go up, but let us never forget, what you're climbing is planted firmly on the ground. everything has it's place and role in this world. What is intelligence if we discard the practical?

That's why I still post a few dirges from time to time, weird norm.:cool:

and i envy how adeptly you express your thoughts.....
keeping my faith, you on your lapsed Aglipayan, unorthodox pagan, and a receding hedonist nature.
we can live with these.

the nature of Christmas.........
...................and on earth peace to men on whom his favor rests.:luvstrk:

ano natigil na ba ang debate nyo . . . . . pagusapan nyo yung nakaktaba ng kalooban.
okay ba mga igan.

You are a welcome addition , JEAVS, sa ating mumunting diskusyon. Lamig ba dya-an sa Sweden? Tell us more about life there! Chige na. Any pagan rituals that people still practice there? How do they profess their religious beliefs? ( Magaganda ba Swedish Girls?)

. . .is Circumcission a pagan rite? Naisip ko lang since we have this thread, can we trackback and make some rudimentary reasearch on such things? :cool:

That's a very interesting question. Before I attempt to answer that, I would like to see first the answer of others, if it's ok.

That's a very interesting question. Before I attempt to answer that, I would like to see first the answer of others, if it's ok.

Oo, kasi I was reminded by our usual lunchtime banter here at work.

Alam ko, even Quebec and Australia retained most of the pagan culture their ancestors passed on to the next generation.